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	<title>Ipseity Comments</title>
	<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com</link>
	<description>Norm Friesen: 1. pron. Himself; truly himself; in his right mind. (OED)</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 04:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Carl Bereiter</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/11/24/the-myth-of-the-knowledge-economy-2/#comment-84</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/11/24/the-myth-of-the-knowledge-economy-2/#comment-84</guid>
					<description>Since Scardamalia's and my work is cited several times as exemplifying the &quot;myth of the knowledge economy,&quot; I make bold to recommend a book edited by Barry Smith, Liberal Education in a Knowledge Society (Open Court, 2002). In it, two economists, Edwards and Ogilvie also challenge the &quot;myth&quot; with evidence and argument, concluding that there is a shift from manufacturing to service jobs but not a shift to knowledge work. The book also contains my reply (pp. 234-236). I make two points: first, that census-type data can't demonstrate a shift to a knowledge economy the way they could demonstrate a shift from an agricultural to a manufacturing economy; second, that support for claims about a knowledge-based economy &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;consists mostly of cases in which companies, large and small, are reorganizing in ways that make knowledge creation and innovation more central to their business. These companies are not claimed to be typical but to be front-running and therefore likely to force other companies to follow suit in order to remain competitive.&quot;&gt; Also, we never claim economic considerations are the sole or even the main reason why students should be on a trajectory leading to mature knowledge creation. Homer-Dixon's books The Ingenuity Gap and The Upside of Down provide a much more comprehensive argument, one that rests on the increasing complexity of the problems societies must deal with. Scardamalia's and my views on these matters are most fully elaborated in our chapter in the new edition of the Handbook of Educational Psychology.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Since Scardamalia&#8217;s and my work is cited several times as exemplifying the &#8220;myth of the knowledge economy,&#8221; I make bold to recommend a book edited by Barry Smith, Liberal Education in a Knowledge Society (Open Court, 2002). In it, two economists, Edwards and Ogilvie also challenge the &#8220;myth&#8221; with evidence and argument, concluding that there is a shift from manufacturing to service jobs but not a shift to knowledge work. The book also contains my reply (pp. 234-236). I make two points: first, that census-type data can&#8217;t demonstrate a shift to a knowledge economy the way they could demonstrate a shift from an agricultural to a manufacturing economy; second, that support for claims about a knowledge-based economy<br />
<blockquote cite="consists mostly of cases in which companies, large and small, are reorganizing in ways that make knowledge creation and innovation more central to their business. These companies are not claimed to be typical but to be front-running and therefore likely to force other companies to follow suit in order to remain competitive."> Also, we never claim economic considerations are the sole or even the main reason why students should be on a trajectory leading to mature knowledge creation. Homer-Dixon&#8217;s books The Ingenuity Gap and The Upside of Down provide a much more comprehensive argument, one that rests on the increasing complexity of the problems societies must deal with. Scardamalia&#8217;s and my views on these matters are most fully elaborated in our chapter in the new edition of the Handbook of Educational Psychology.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>by: Tarmo Toikkanen</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-82</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 12:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-82</guid>
					<description>I cannot understand what basis Tapscott has in saying
&quot;For the first time in history, children are more comfortable, knowledgeable, and literate than their parents about an innovation central to their society.&quot;

That is just rubbish. Throughout the history of mankind, it has been the old generation who has taught the young the history and ways of the community, and it has been the new generation that has taken those teachings, and taken society into new areas.

Luther was not an old man, nor was Galileo, Newton, or Darwin, when they made their discoveries or conclusions that shook the foundations of the established society. It has been the 20-30-year-olds who have invented airoplanes, automobiles, and so on. And it is a commonly known fact for example in mathematics that a mathematician over 30 won't make any groundbreaking advances any more.

It has always been the students, the youth, who have furthered society. They in turn will turn into the &quot;previous generation&quot; and will become conservatist, trying to protect the society they helped create. But the next generation is always there, changing things.

Granted, the Internet provides lots of possibilities, but it's just a technology that facilitates. We've had face to face meetings, written letters, books, and journals, for centuries. The net just makes all of this easier and faster. Maybe.

But it's always been the children who are most comfortable with the new technologies and ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I cannot understand what basis Tapscott has in saying<br />
&#8220;For the first time in history, children are more comfortable, knowledgeable, and literate than their parents about an innovation central to their society.&#8221;</p>
	<p>That is just rubbish. Throughout the history of mankind, it has been the old generation who has taught the young the history and ways of the community, and it has been the new generation that has taken those teachings, and taken society into new areas.</p>
	<p>Luther was not an old man, nor was Galileo, Newton, or Darwin, when they made their discoveries or conclusions that shook the foundations of the established society. It has been the 20-30-year-olds who have invented airoplanes, automobiles, and so on. And it is a commonly known fact for example in mathematics that a mathematician over 30 won&#8217;t make any groundbreaking advances any more.</p>
	<p>It has always been the students, the youth, who have furthered society. They in turn will turn into the &#8220;previous generation&#8221; and will become conservatist, trying to protect the society they helped create. But the next generation is always there, changing things.</p>
	<p>Granted, the Internet provides lots of possibilities, but it&#8217;s just a technology that facilitates. We&#8217;ve had face to face meetings, written letters, books, and journals, for centuries. The net just makes all of this easier and faster. Maybe.</p>
	<p>But it&#8217;s always been the children who are most comfortable with the new technologies and ideas.
</p>
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		<title>by: Guitef</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/09/03/learning-theories-the-philosophical-family-tree/#comment-78</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:46:16 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/09/03/learning-theories-the-philosophical-family-tree/#comment-78</guid>
					<description>&lt;strong&gt;Sources philosophique des thories dapprentissage [schma]&lt;/strong&gt;

La querelle entre les empiristes et les rformistes qui dchire le monde de lducation repose sur des approches philosophiques divergentes. Norm Friesen attire notre attention sur une reprsentation des influences philosophiques qui divisent le monde de ld...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Sources philosophique des thories dapprentissage [schma]</strong></p>
	<p>La querelle entre les empiristes et les rformistes qui dchire le monde de lducation repose sur des approches philosophiques divergentes. Norm Friesen attire notre attention sur une reprsentation des influences philosophiques qui divisent le monde de ld&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/24/e-learning-myth-2-technology-drives-educational-change/#comment-77</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:05:26 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/24/e-learning-myth-2-technology-drives-educational-change/#comment-77</guid>
					<description>Stephen Downes and I have been holding a conversation on the issues raised in this piece. See: &lt;a href=&quot;http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2006/08/technology-changes-everything.html#links&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Half an Hour: Technology Changes Everything&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Stephen Downes and I have been holding a conversation on the issues raised in this piece. See: <a href="http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2006/08/technology-changes-everything.html#links" rel="nofollow">Half an Hour: Technology Changes Everything</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: Susanne Heyer</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/09/03/learning-theories-the-philosophical-family-tree/#comment-76</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:29:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/09/03/learning-theories-the-philosophical-family-tree/#comment-76</guid>
					<description>Hi Norm, thanks for the comment you emailed me. I was curious to find out that you are looking into the differences of American and German tradition of education, which interest me as well. I downloaded your paper and am looking forward to reading it. I'll get back to you then! Thanks, Susanne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Norm, thanks for the comment you emailed me. I was curious to find out that you are looking into the differences of American and German tradition of education, which interest me as well. I downloaded your paper and am looking forward to reading it. I&#8217;ll get back to you then! Thanks, Susanne
</p>
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		<title>by: Scott Leslie</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/28/digital-maoism-jaron-lanier-on-cbc-podcast/#comment-75</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:30:10 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/28/digital-maoism-jaron-lanier-on-cbc-podcast/#comment-75</guid>
					<description>Seems to be bad URL to the MP3 in your post - I found a copy at http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2B6128AD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seems to be bad URL to the MP3 in your post - I found a copy at <a href='http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2B6128AD' rel='nofollow'>http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2B6128AD</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: kate</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/24/e-learning-myth-2-technology-drives-educational-change/#comment-74</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:22:58 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/24/e-learning-myth-2-technology-drives-educational-change/#comment-74</guid>
					<description>neato</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>neato
</p>
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		<title>by: les</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-73</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:37:14 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-73</guid>
					<description>Great article. Although part of the 2.0 tip, its rather overstated the next gen idea. I've always felt class was more important. Couldn't have put it better myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Great article. Although part of the 2.0 tip, its rather overstated the next gen idea. I&#8217;ve always felt class was more important. Couldn&#8217;t have put it better myself.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lyle Ford</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-71</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:07:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-71</guid>
					<description>Blind adaptation, though popular, never engenders positive outcomes. I think you're right about the Next Gen myth. It more accurately reflects the anxieties of those who feel like they have to &quot;catch up&quot; to tech than it does reality.  

I wonder too about Tapscott's assertion that “For the first time in history, children are more comfortable, knowledgeable, and literate than their parents about an innovation central to their society.&quot; Really? What about the telephone, tv, and film to name a few examples? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Blind adaptation, though popular, never engenders positive outcomes. I think you&#8217;re right about the Next Gen myth. It more accurately reflects the anxieties of those who feel like they have to &#8220;catch up&#8221; to tech than it does reality.  </p>
	<p>I wonder too about Tapscott&#8217;s assertion that “For the first time in history, children are more comfortable, knowledgeable, and literate than their parents about an innovation central to their society.&#8221; Really? What about the telephone, tv, and film to name a few examples?
</p>
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		<title>by: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-70</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:44:28 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ipseity.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/p36/#comment-70</guid>
					<description>The major case againt the 'Net Gen Myth' is stated in Livingstone, Bober &amp;amp; Helsper, 2005. However, while the authors (such as Tapscott) describe the 'Net Gen' in terms of behaviours (as you say, &quot;personal, multifunctional, wireless, multimedia, [and] communication-centric&quot;) the Livingstone, Bober &amp;amp; Helsper study responds to skills of capacities. These are two very different things.

Additionally, the Livingstone, Bober &amp;amp; Helsper methodologically suspect, dividing internet skills into two categories, embracing 'opportunities' and avoiding 'risks'. It is not clear (and not argued) that the opportunities listed are in fact opportunities, nor is it clear that the dangers are dangers. The latter category, in fact, is made up exclusively of access to pornography, revealing information, and having friends.

This does not undermine the main argument of the section, which is to suggest that the net generation is not defined by age group alone. It is in fact defined by access, and hence, will not line up exactly with age.

But is this the myth, that the net generation is not defined exclusively by age? I cannot think of any proponent of the theory who would explicitly say so, nor certainly would they when pressed with questions about, say, net gen behaviours in the developing world.

That said, the definitions used in the Livingstone, Bober &amp;amp; Helsper study mask what constitutes net gen behaviour, even among those classified as being on the wrong side of the digital divide in this section. Access to mobil phones, for example, is near ubiquitous, even in the developing world, and therefore it is reasonable to suggest that associated net gen behaviours - such as 'thumbing' and 'txting' - would be found wouldwide, as would related attitudes - such as 'connectivity' and 'self organization'.

Does it therefore that the conusion is false, that we should not believe that &quot;It is important to address significant inequalities in use, understanding, and facility associated with these new technologies, rather than simply painting all students with the same brush.&quot;

Of course not. This remains true. It has probably always been seen as true, save among the most pedagogically naive.

I would be more interested in seeing whether access to technology increases or decreases the differences between children of the privileged and children of the poor.

Compare, for example, the life of the child of a New York doctor with the life of, say, a Colombian orphan. If any such studies were conducted prior to the use of the internet, we can then compare those results with results from today, in the internet age (and for fun, with what the results look like when free interenet access is provided to both children).

My belief is that these children would be less dissimilar today, and that this dissimilarity can be traced to the permeation of 'net gen culture' into their two lives respectively.

-- Stephen </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The major case againt the &#8216;Net Gen Myth&#8217; is stated in Livingstone, Bober &amp; Helsper, 2005. However, while the authors (such as Tapscott) describe the &#8216;Net Gen&#8217; in terms of behaviours (as you say, &#8220;personal, multifunctional, wireless, multimedia, [and] communication-centric&#8221;) the Livingstone, Bober &amp; Helsper study responds to skills of capacities. These are two very different things.</p>
	<p>Additionally, the Livingstone, Bober &amp; Helsper methodologically suspect, dividing internet skills into two categories, embracing &#8216;opportunities&#8217; and avoiding &#8216;risks&#8217;. It is not clear (and not argued) that the opportunities listed are in fact opportunities, nor is it clear that the dangers are dangers. The latter category, in fact, is made up exclusively of access to pornography, revealing information, and having friends.</p>
	<p>This does not undermine the main argument of the section, which is to suggest that the net generation is not defined by age group alone. It is in fact defined by access, and hence, will not line up exactly with age.</p>
	<p>But is this the myth, that the net generation is not defined exclusively by age? I cannot think of any proponent of the theory who would explicitly say so, nor certainly would they when pressed with questions about, say, net gen behaviours in the developing world.</p>
	<p>That said, the definitions used in the Livingstone, Bober &amp; Helsper study mask what constitutes net gen behaviour, even among those classified as being on the wrong side of the digital divide in this section. Access to mobil phones, for example, is near ubiquitous, even in the developing world, and therefore it is reasonable to suggest that associated net gen behaviours - such as &#8216;thumbing&#8217; and &#8216;txting&#8217; - would be found wouldwide, as would related attitudes - such as &#8216;connectivity&#8217; and &#8217;self organization&#8217;.</p>
	<p>Does it therefore that the conusion is false, that we should not believe that &#8220;It is important to address significant inequalities in use, understanding, and facility associated with these new technologies, rather than simply painting all students with the same brush.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Of course not. This remains true. It has probably always been seen as true, save among the most pedagogically naive.</p>
	<p>I would be more interested in seeing whether access to technology increases or decreases the differences between children of the privileged and children of the poor.</p>
	<p>Compare, for example, the life of the child of a New York doctor with the life of, say, a Colombian orphan. If any such studies were conducted prior to the use of the internet, we can then compare those results with results from today, in the internet age (and for fun, with what the results look like when free interenet access is provided to both children).</p>
	<p>My belief is that these children would be less dissimilar today, and that this dissimilarity can be traced to the permeation of &#8216;net gen culture&#8217; into their two lives respectively.</p>
	<p>&#8212; Stephen
</p>
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